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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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 Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: Religion and politics |
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I didn't know where to put this, but I find the article interesting:
Johann Hari: The tricky question of Gordon Brown's God
Thoughts?
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Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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Michele
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Curious editorial. The main question being asked is certainly valid, but in order to state my opinion fully, I have to include my criticisms of some of what the author wrote. Even though the he wonders what Gordon Brown's religious proclivities are, his conclusion reads:
| Quote: | "
Perhaps the more important question is - can we have this benign, pro-poor element of Jesus' teaching, without all the other abhorrent lessons his religion brings? (Remember: Jesus said to follow "every jot and tittle" of the psychotic Old Testament.) Jim Wallis is anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, and on and on. Worryingly, we have little information on where Brown stands on these issues. He has not voted on a single one of the 18 pro-gay measures brought by the current government (although he did vote for an equal age of consent in 1994). Is this an oversight, or ambivalence?
There is another political bog that Brown's faith may suck him into: the expansion of faith schools. The Government is now promoting the division of Britain's kids into religious and ethnic educational enclaves, where they will not mix. This is a recipe for racial division and hatred, but Brown's bias towards faith as a positive force will almost certainly stop him secularising our schools.
So Gordon Brown's God is cantankerous and ambiguous. At His best, He likes to help the poor and hates hereditary privilege. At His worst, He likes dividing His flock into schools where He will be worshiped fulsomely in His many different guises. This God is alternately encouraging and disturbing - but we cannot understand our next Prime Minister without Him." |
First of all, the man known as Jesus singlehandedly did away with MOST of the rules given in the Old Testament, so Johann Hari talking out of his proverbial ass.  He clearly is no scholar of the Bible, because that's commonly known, undisputed opinion.
Secondly, Roman Catholics from the Industrial Age and up to present times, have always been associated with the Left. They have never allowed silly shit like abortion and gay rights to distract them from more important issues. It's inaccurate for Mr. Hari to portray US Christians as only being from the Bible Belt, and only voting for Republicans. In truth, the so-called Christian Right has gained power because they're better organized and motivated, not necessarily because they exist in greater numbers. No poll will ever truly tell us the number of devoutly Christian people there are in the US because people don't often tell the truth about their actual beliefs and practices. It's just like polls on sex; people lie. It's wrong to form a character for God based on the fringe's beliefs.
With those distortions put aside, I have to agree that we need to know what Gordon Brown believes. What are his morals? Who does he admire? To me, that's what religion is - an amalgamation of principles and heroes. |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Michele wrote: | | First of all, the man known as Jesus singlehandedly did away with MOST of the rules given in the Old Testament, so Johann Hari talking out of his proverbial ass. He clearly is no scholar of the Bible, because that's commonly known, undisputed opinion. |
I'm no bible scholar either (far from it...), but the citation is correct, it's in Matthew, 5:
| Quote: | 17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. |
I'll really have to read the whole book one day to really make my own opinion (I started, but did not go further than Genesis...  ), but it seems to me one can find almost everything in it...
| Quote: | | Secondly, Roman Catholics from the Industrial Age and up to present times, have always been associated with the Left. They have never allowed silly shit like abortion and gay rights to distract them from more important issues. It's inaccurate for Mr. Hari to portray US Christians as only being from the Bible Belt, and only voting for Republicans. |
Ain't this exactly what he says? "Most Europeans associate... But there is another political tradition within Christianity..." Or did I get him wrong?
| Quote: | | With those distortions put aside, I have to agree that we need to know what Gordon Brown believes. What are his morals? Who does he admire? To me, that's what religion is - an amalgamation of principles and heroes. |
What I find interesting here, is that it shows how difficult it is to make a distinction between faith and political leanings. I've always though politicians should keep their religious beliefs private, but this makes me wonder how much we're all biased toward politicians who share our beliefs?
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Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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Michele
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Ok, let's look at Matthew, Chapter 5:
Firstly, in that verse that is cited, I believe he is referring to the 10 Commandments. The reason I think that is because he uses that very word, and the crimes he addresses in the verses following deal with murder, adultery and swearing oaths for and by God. In other words, he goes on to discuss specific commandments, and probably isn't including all of the Laws of Moses.
But heed this, right after that he discusses Mosaic law (also known as the laws of the Babylonian king and codifier, Hammurabi), and he says:
| Quote: | | You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. |
There's also the well-known story of the adulteress, where Jesus advocates against the law in John, Chapter 8.
| Quote: | | Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. |
When I was a child, I decided to read every word of Leviticus and was astonished by all of those crazy rules. When I came to the section about pork, I was dumbfounded that here was a rule against pork and yet, I had eaten a hotdog for lunch. I immediately phoned up my very religious grandma and asked her what was up. She directed me to these verses from the book of Acts, Chapter 10:
| Quote: | | ...he fell into a trance, and saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. |
This dream that Peter had is exactly the reason why Christians can disobey kosher laws from the Bible and eat pork, shellfish and anything else under the sun.
I have a feeling the passages I just mentioned are at least partially familiar to you. Yes, I'd advise you to read the book again, if not for the mesmerizing snapshot of history and literature it provides, I believe that Jesus was inspired by a sect of Jews (can't remember the name right now) who believed strongly in pacifism and humanitarian causes. Surely we can admire that.
As for the author, equating Jesus' teachings with the "psychotic Old Testament" is misleading. I also resent his barb at American Christians, even if it was sly or unintentional. It was these parts that annoyed me -
| Quote: | | Most Europeans associate religion-in-politics with the foaming televangelists of the Bible Belt, who believe Jesus Christ is always on the ballot paper next to the box marked "Republican". Theirs is a Jesus who blesses the rich and bitch-slaps gays with his crown of thorns. |
| Quote: | But there is another political tradition within Christianity - and it is the one Brown belongs to. In the 19th century, English-speaking world, Christianity was seen largely as a force of the left, bolstering pro-poor, emancipationist movements.
After a long hibernation, where it slept only in the emptying pews of the Church of England, this strain of Christianity has been stirring once again. For example, over the past few years, there has been a historical rehabilitation on both sides of the Atlantic of William Jennings Bryan. |
Sorry, but I think he's implying that Americans have only just recently been clued into the whole bleeding heart, left-leaning side of Christianity. That leaves out Quakers, Methodists and Catholics. As someone who's from a place in close proximity to the Bible Belt, I resent the idea that this vocal minority (Christian fundamentalists) has made people forget what most Americans are about when it comes to religion.
But again, I don't want my criticisms to detract too much from the editorial. I just found it a bit odd in places but otherwise, I agree that we need to understand what a politician believes. |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Michele wrote: | | I have a feeling the passages I just mentioned are at least partially familiar to you. Yes, I'd advise you to read the book again, if not for the mesmerizing snapshot of history and literature it provides, I believe that Jesus was inspired by a sect of Jews (can't remember the name right now) who believed strongly in pacifism and humanitarian causes. Surely we can admire that. |
I didn't know the Acts, I just read the chapter you quoted, that's interesting. (I use unboundbible.org, a search engine on many translations of the Bible.)
I've always though I should read it one day, as well as the Qoran, not so much for the religious aspects but to gain better understanding of our societies. I started, but it will take me some time to go through it.
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Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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Michele
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