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The Political Asylum
When it comes to lively debate, we're not just committed - we're certifiable!
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| What religious or non-religious outlook best describes your faith? |
| Agnostic |
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8% |
[ 1 ] |
| Anglican |
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16% |
[ 2 ] |
| Atheist |
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16% |
[ 2 ] |
| Buddhist |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Catholic |
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25% |
[ 3 ] |
| Eastern Orthodox |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Evangelical Christian |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Hindu |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Jewish |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Muslim |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Satanist |
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8% |
[ 1 ] |
| Sikh |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Other |
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25% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 12 |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: Describe your faith. |
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Protestant? Evangelical Christian? Catholic? Hindu? Muslim? Jew? Satanist? Buddhist? Sikh? Agnostic or Atheist?
What religious or non-religious outlook best describes your faith?
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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I selected "Other" because I don't compare myself with the rest of Christians. I guess what set's me apart from the group is that I have my own set of beliefs and values.
Some might be in accordance with the Christian beliefs, but I tend to go a bit further by means of asking questions that most priests and Christians find insulting (and I don't know why) because I've always been told: "Seek and you shall find." And I'm exactly doing that.
Here is a short description about my belief:
What I believe:
- I believe in a highger power - God.
- I believe that everything was created and still is run by God.
- If God didn't exist, neither would I (apart from being jobless for 3 years, I finally found something far more better than anything I could have hoped for. And this all happened due to prayer.)
- Therefore I believe in prayer. It's our "communication device" with our Father.
- I believe in Jesus and that he died for our sins.
- I embrace difference in opinion when it comes to God, because I know not everyone is called to learn His truths and therefore I can't judge my fellow men, it's between them and God.
What I don't believe:
- I don't believe in reincarnation. When we die, we go into a deep sleep.
- I don't believe in theory based information because it's part of this life's series of tests to delude our direction from the truth.
- I don't believe in magic or anything related to it.
- I don't believe that someone can't change for the better. Anyone can change their ways.
- I don't believe in hatered. It's polution to the soul. I believe in love.
I'm still learning, but I know I'm on the right track so far. |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: |
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I'd describe myself as an agnostic, though atheist would be a close call. The difference bieng, that I don't think there is no god. I think we can not know. Which somehow makes me an atheist agnostic, as my own inclination goes toward rationalism.
I have the same doubtful position towards miracles, magic, reincarnation, god(s), faeries or whatever supernatural event / creature. And the same also towards flying saucers and little green men, which probably exists, but which visiting our planet does not seem plossible.
Also, I don't believe in philosophical concepts like Absolute Good and Evil (they're completely relative notions to me), not in the existence of soul (how could it exist without the brain?) etc. Or rather, I think they do exist, but as concept. Same with God: I can but recognise that it's a very powerful concept, that had and still has a huge influence on people and society. Which doesn't mean it has any physical reality. I tend to think about God as a sort of allegory of human ideals and feelings.
Now I can not prove that these things (though I heard about some experiments... I'll have to check that), but in most cases - especially with God- I don't see what difference it would make, so why not?
In contrast I feel very interested in understanding other's beliefs. For example... redlunar, what do you mean you "don't believe in theory based information"?
Also I did not really understood how your beliefs differed from other Christians?
_________________
Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| adrien wrote: | | redlunar, what do you mean you "don't believe in theory based information"? |
What she means is she rejects every piece of scientific information, theory or fact which contradicts her religious beliefs, believing them to be a trick to test her faith.
 Sorry but I find that very worrying. Its self-deluding and provides circular protection for your beliefs, which given the scale and scope of religious beliefs in the world, means in all probability, your are protecting a lie.
Also Redlunar's beliefs don't seem much different from evangelical Christianity. Though as someone living in Europe she probably has limited experience of evangelism, more likely she compares her views with more liberal protestantism and sees a difference.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| adrien wrote: |
In contrast I feel very interested in understanding other's beliefs. For example... redlunar, what do you mean you "don't believe in theory based information"?
Also I did not really understood how your beliefs differed from other Christians? |
Theory based information = scientific experimenting, research etc. with regards to evolution, sickness, human development etc.
Personally I don't believe in this type of "searching for the truth", although I do find it interesting when they do actually find something that makes sense and fits in with God's word.
I'd like to see myself as a servant of God. I differ from your ordinair Christian because, like I stated before, I tend to ask questions that some find insulting such as:
Christians believe in a trinity, whereas I don't. I acknowledge God to be one and not divided in three parts. This is just one of the major obsticle I face when I confront other Christians. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: |
Christians believe in a trinity, whereas I don't. I acknowledge God to be one and not divided in three parts. This is just one of the major obsticle I face when I confront other Christians. |
Ah now that is a difference. But I suspect many Anglican's don't believe in the Trinity either... apparently is no longer compulsory for church attendance in England.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| You don't have to attend a church to believe in God. As the Bible teaches us that God's church is in everyone of us. I don't attend a church here because quite frankly, I am not receiving the truths of God's word, but rather what the pastors and priests wants you to hear. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | You don't have to attend a church to believe in God. |
I never said you did, I said (rather tongue in cheek) that belief in the trinity was not longer a prerequisite for being a Christian.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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Goodbrit
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 859
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Ive picked Anglicanism because technically i am, but im more of a non denominational christian who believes that the most important thing for a Christian is to belive in God and the death and resurrection of Christ-doesnt matter to me whether you are anglican, Catholic etc
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Manchester, when death isnt enougth |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | I'd like to see myself as a servant of God. I differ from your ordinair Christian because, like I stated before, I tend to ask questions that some find insulting such as:
Christians believe in a trinity, whereas I don't. I acknowledge God to be one and not divided in three parts. This is just one of the major obsticle I face when I confront other Christians. |
O.K., that makes sense, thanks.
| Quote: | Theory based information = scientific experimenting, research etc. with regards to evolution, sickness, human development etc.
Personally I don't believe in this type of "searching for the truth", although I do find it interesting when they do actually find something that makes sense and fits in with God's word. |
I can hardly understand how one can reject that. To be consistent with that... no, I'm sorry but with all due respect I can't even imagine how it is possible to hold such an opinion. I mean, the scientific method is not some modern divination technique, it's something we use daily, all our practical and technical knowledge is based on it. If, just say, this computer means, if must be that the theory behind it is not completely false, surely? If advances we live longer and can cure sickness that used to be lethal, surely the theory behind it is not completely fanciful?
To make it short: I consider the scientific method the absolute prerequisite for holding anything for certain. And to put it even shorter: for living. Even if we do not necessarily realise that.
_________________
Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| adrien wrote: |
I can hardly understand how one can reject that. To be consistent with that... no, I'm sorry but with all due respect I can't even imagine how it is possible to hold such an opinion. I mean, the scientific method is not some modern divination technique, it's something we use daily, all our practical and technical knowledge is based on it. If, just say, this computer means, if must be that the theory behind it is not completely false, surely? If advances we live longer and can cure sickness that used to be lethal, surely the theory behind it is not completely fanciful?
To make it short: I consider the scientific method the absolute prerequisite for holding anything for certain. And to put it even shorter: for living. Even if we do not necessarily realise that. |
I'll rephrase my answer: I do find it interesting when they (scientists) do actually find something that makes sense and fits in with God's word.
We differ in views - nothing bad about that Adrien. |
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Michele
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone watched The Exodus Decoded? It's produced by the same people that are doing the Jesus documentary that's coming out - the one involving James Cameron.
In the documentary about the book of Exodus, they use science to explain how the plagues of Egypt and the subsequent flight of the Israelites was able to occur. |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: |
I'll rephrase my answer: I do find it interesting when they (scientists) do actually find something that makes sense and fits in with God's word.
We differ in views - nothing bad about that Adrien. |
 I prefer that. You first wrote that you did not believe in theory based information, which I consider almost impossible. But I can completely understand you're simply not interested in science. No problem, and nothing with that, indeed.
Of course, as far as I concerned and if I were a beliver, I think that in the cases where scientific findings don't (seem to) fit "God's words", it's rather the Bible that - I would not say got it wrong, but maybe, just maybe has been misinterpretated.
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Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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wakeyboy
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 615
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I selected catholic as I'm baptised as such and it best describes my beliefs.
I believe in the Holy Trinity.
I believe that the Virgin Mary deserves reverence and respect as the Mother of God.
I believe that the Pope is the successor to St. Peter
I believe in the ressurection and ever lasting life.
I also find the catholic mass to be the most spiritually rewarding.
I believe in transubstantiation, sort of!
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http://www.realradioyorkshire.co.uk/ |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it needs to be said that I'm an atheist. My reasons are very similar to Adrien's. Only I consider myself and Atheist because I believe that for something to be true you have to prove it, or at least demonstrate it with a sufficient body of evidence for it to be considered a good theory.
I can't rule out the possibility of God no more than I can rule out Russell's Teapot, but I think Russell's Teapot is a preposterous suggestion, so in the interests of consistency I must treat God's existence with the same incredulity. Hence I qualify myself as an Atheist rather than Atheistic Agnostic.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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Michele
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| I chose other because I am exploring what I believe. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: |
I'll rephrase my answer: I do find it interesting when they (scientists) do actually find something that makes sense and fits in with God's word.
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If God's word is the bible, (and I hope it is otherwise in all probably you are hearing voices which more likely to be schizophrenia than God.) Then there hasn't been much that Science has discovered which fits with it.
Examples.
1. On day one God created the earth. Er... no... the universe is 13.7 billion years. Earth came some 9 billion years later.
2. According to scripture the Sun followed the earth, er no planetary systems like ours tend to be formed after the start they orbit.
3. According to scripture the earth is 5000 years old. Nope its 4.5 Billion years old (approx)
4. According to scripture Man was created out of dust and Women out of the rib of man. I'll let dust be figurative for atoms, but one thing biology teaches us is that if one sex has to come first, its female not male. See Parthenogenetically
5. According to scripture early man lived to ages of 800-900 years. Human biology is not capable of this kind of longevity.
What could you possibly mean?
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: |
If God's word is the bible, (and I hope it is otherwise in all probably you are hearing voices which more likely to be schizophrenia than God.) Then there hasn't been much that Science has discovered which fits with it.
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I find your comment rather insulting. I don't critize your belief system (if you can call it that), but you insist on being correct all the way. You back up your so called "proof" with scripture from the bible. If you're not a believer in God and the bible, why bother to use it to make a point?
I will never totally believe in what the science has to say about this or that. I'd rather stick with what I feel is right than to try and dig up some theory (which can't even be proven) and to use that as some kind of evidence.
As far as I'm concerned, this is where we stop. You can't convince me, and I can't convince you (never was my intention anyway.) I just wanted to share my beliefs and the reasons why. Respect and tollerance would be in order here. |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | I will never totally believe in what the science has to say about this or that. I'd rather stick with what I feel is right than to try and dig up some theory (which can't even be proven) and to use that as some kind of evidence. |
A very sensible, and if I dare say, scientific position  , as science does not pretend to hold any absolute truth. Any scientific truth is "just" a best explanation we can think of given the available evidence. Thus it may very well be wrong, but is assumed to be true as long as it is consistent with evidence.
| AngryLiberal wrote: | | I believe that for something to be true you have to prove it, or at least demonstrate it with a sufficient body of evidence for it to be considered a good theory. |
Precisely: you can't prove God does not exist. Given the evidence it does not seem (to me at least) that God is necessary, but that does not prove anything, does it?
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Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| adrien wrote: |
A very sensible, and if I dare say, scientific position , as science does not pretend to hold any absolute truth. Any scientific truth is "just" a best explanation we can think of given the available evidence. Thus it may very well be wrong, but is assumed to be true as long as it is consistent with evidence.
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I'd prefer it to be a neutral position (something most people find hard to do.) |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | I'd prefer it to be a neutral position (something most people find hard to do.) |
"neutral" regarding what?
_________________
Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| with regards to scientific theories. |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | with regards to scientific theories. |
Erm. Mat be my limited English, but I thought neutral supposes there is a conflict, so my question was: regarding to what conflict? For in my opinion there is no conflict between Science and religion, and still that's how I understood your answers, hence my question.
_________________
Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| adrien wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | with regards to scientific theories. |
Erm. Mat be my limited English, but I thought neutral supposes there is a conflict, so my question was: regarding to what conflict? For in my opinion there is no conflict between Science and religion, and still that's how I understood your answers, hence my question. |
Being neutral, does NOT equal conflict. I'm not sure where you want to go with this, but I don't think we agree - so let's just leave it at that Adrien.
You don't have to explain your views to me and neither would I anymore. |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | adrien wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | with regards to scientific theories. |
Erm. Mat be my limited English, but I thought neutral supposes there is a conflict, so my question was: regarding to what conflict? For in my opinion there is no conflict between Science and religion, and still that's how I understood your answers, hence my question. |
Being neutral, does NOT equal conflict. I'm not sure where you want to go with this, but I don't think we agree - so let's just leave it at that Adrien.
You don't have to explain your views to me and neither would I anymore. |
O.K., fine with me.
(Just to explain: in French, the word "neutre" when applied to people implies the existence of a conflict or an opposition in which one choose to remain "neutral", i.e. not take sides. Hence my assumption it was the same in English. So in fact I still don't really got what you meant by "neutral", but let's stop here, it's not that important.)
_________________
Sit on the banks of the river and wait for the corpse of your enemy. - Indian proverb. |
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wakeyboy
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 615
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| adrien wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | adrien wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | with regards to scientific theories. |
Erm. Mat be my limited English, but I thought neutral supposes there is a conflict, so my question was: regarding to what conflict? For in my opinion there is no conflict between Science and religion, and still that's how I understood your answers, hence my question. |
Being neutral, does NOT equal conflict. I'm not sure where you want to go with this, but I don't think we agree - so let's just leave it at that Adrien.
You don't have to explain your views to me and neither would I anymore. |
O.K., fine with me.
(Just to explain: in French, the word "neutre" when applied to people implies the existence of a conflict or an opposition in which one choose to remain "neutral", i.e. not take sides. Hence my assumption it was the same in English. So in fact I still don't really got what you meant by "neutral", but let's stop here, it's not that important.) |
Neutral is an absence of any polar extreme. To be a neutral country during World War II was to not side with either side. To remain outside the conflict as much as possible.
It can also apply to PH scales, something that is neither acidic nor alkaline but lies in the middle can be considered neutral.
I think redlunar was trying to say that a neutral opinion, one in which you neither believe nor disbelieve a scientific theory is best.
As for the existence of God, it is more accurate to be neutral than to believe in his existence or non-existence. An atheist is just as wrong as a theist in terms of science.
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http://www.realradioyorkshire.co.uk/ |
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Dr Ofah
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Other |
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wakeyboy
Inmate of the Asylum
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Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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Dr Ofah
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| No they did not.............. what is that all about? |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | AngryLiberal wrote: |
If God's word is the bible, (and I hope it is otherwise in all probably you are hearing voices which more likely to be schizophrenia than God.) Then there hasn't been much that Science has discovered which fits with it.
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I find your comment rather insulting. I don't critize your belief system (if you can call it that), but you insist on being correct all the way. You back up your so called "proof" with scripture from the bible. If you're not a believer in God and the bible, why bother to use it to make a point? |
Well for one I don't care if you criticise my belief system because my beliefs stand up to logical scrutiny and I'm prepared to defend them, what's more if you can prove me wrong, I'll admit my fault. This goes for my religious and political beliefs equally.
For me religion is not sacred, therefore I will not, and I flat refuse to show anyone's religious beliefs any more respect than I would their opinions on other issues such as the rate of taxation or their political philosophy. (And broadly speaking I show people a lot more respect than many other posters.) If you don't like that: Tough. Don't debate with me.
Though equally, unless you believe you are channelling directly with God, I can't see how you would find my remark insulting. My argument was based on the fact your are getting your information from scripture, not from facsimile from heaven.
In which case I simply contradicted your claim that science agrees with religion by highlighting 5 points upon which scripture and science disagree.
| Quote: | | I will never totally believe in what the science has to say about this or that. I'd rather stick with what I feel is right than to try and dig up some theory (which can't even be proven) and to use that as some kind of evidence. |
Such arrogance! What you are saying is you'll never believe scientific evidence, only your own feelings even though unlike science, your feelings are backed by no evidence, no research and not facts, only your own blind belief that you are right! You are no better than Diamond Lil.
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
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Posts: 244
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | AngryLiberal wrote: |
If God's word is the bible, (and I hope it is otherwise in all probably you are hearing voices which more likely to be schizophrenia than God.) Then there hasn't been much that Science has discovered which fits with it.
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I find your comment rather insulting. I don't critize your belief system (if you can call it that), but you insist on being correct all the way. You back up your so called "proof" with scripture from the bible. If you're not a believer in God and the bible, why bother to use it to make a point? |
Well for one I don't care if you criticise my belief system because my beliefs stand up to logical scrutiny and I'm prepared to defend them, what's more if you can prove me wrong, I'll admit my fault. This goes for my religious and political beliefs equally.
For me religion is not sacred, therefore I will not, and I flat refuse to show anyone's religious beliefs any more respect than I would their opinions on other issues such as the rate of taxation or their political philosophy. (And broadly speaking I show people a lot more respect than many other posters.) If you don't like that: Tough. Don't debate with me.
Though equally, unless you believe you are channelling directly with God, I can't see how you would find my remark insulting. My argument was based on the fact your are getting your information from scripture, not from facsimile from heaven.
In which case I simply contradicted your claim that science agrees with religion by highlighting 5 points upon which scripture and science disagree.
| Quote: | | I will never totally believe in what the science has to say about this or that. I'd rather stick with what I feel is right than to try and dig up some theory (which can't even be proven) and to use that as some kind of evidence. |
Such arrogance! What you are saying is you'll never believe scientific evidence, only your own feelings even though unlike science, your feelings are backed by no evidence, no research and not facts, only your own blind belief that you are right! You are no better than Diamond Lil.
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Whatever David. It's your life - enjoy it, just don't be a jerk. Quoted from you very own blog. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | Angry Liberal wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | I will never totally believe in what the science has to say about this or that. I'd rather stick with what I feel is right than to try and dig up some theory (which can't even be proven) and to use that as some kind of evidence. |
Such arrogance! What you are saying is you'll never believe scientific evidence, only your own feelings even though unlike science, your feelings are backed by no evidence, no research and not facts, only your own blind belief that you are right! You are no better than Diamond Lil.
Rolling Eyes |
Whatever David. It's your life - enjoy it, just don't be a jerk. Quoted from you very own blog. |
You might think I'm being a jerk by spelling that out, but we've been friends long enough for you to hear it from me. It is incredibly arrogant to believe that you are right and the whole scientific community is wrong, just because you "have a feeling".
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: |
You might think I'm being a jerk by spelling that out, but we've been friends long enough for you to hear it from me. It is incredibly arrogant to believe that you are right and the whole scientific community is wrong, just because you "have a feeling". |
Firstly, I've never implied that I was right. If you call it that because I shared my beliefs and the reasons why then you're way off mark.
Secondly, friends don't insult each other, regardless of the situation.
Thirdly, (and I think this is where the problem lies), you don't like it that I belief in something else and in another way, other than what you believe in. Why is this so hard to accept? I don't have to proof anything with regards to my belief, and neither should you have to.
This is a topic that should be for interest sake and not to try and change other people's minds by insulting them because they have their own beliefs and do not support your views and that of your scientific community.
I'm not the arrogant one here David. |
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adrien
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 290
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | Angry Liberal wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | I will never totally believe in what the science has to say about this or that. I'd rather stick with what I feel is right than to try and dig up some theory (which can't even be proven) and to use that as some kind of evidence. |
Such arrogance! What you are saying is you'll never believe scientific evidence, only your own feelings even though unlike science, your feelings are backed by no evidence, no research and not facts, only your own blind belief that you are right! You are no better than Diamond Lil.
Rolling Eyes |
Whatever David. It's your life - enjoy it, just don't be a jerk. Quoted from you very own blog. |
You might think I'm being a jerk by spelling that out, but we've been friends long enough for you to hear it from me. It is incredibly arrogant to believe that you are right and the whole scientific community is wrong, just because you "have a feeling". |
I would not call that arrogance. It's not the first time I notice that people who don't have a scientific background - I assume this is RL's case - don't make the difference between science and a "system of belief". Well, it is in some sense, but it is a very general system that is shared by all humanity: I mean the belief that you can rely on experience, and that if you repeat an experiment in the same condition you will get the same result. That is the only belief you need to have to "believe" in science (and in fact to learn anything, and thus to live in general, which is why I said it was a universal belief). All the rest is logic, deductions, implications, probability: one may agree or disagree with a result, but not believe in it (at least, one who knows the facts and theory that produces this result.)
Now, it's impossible to have the knowledge to understand every scientific result. But then acceptance of these results does not (should not) rely on belief either, but on the trust one may have in the scientific method and scientist's capacity to follow their own rules. As a biologist I don't understand much of physics theories, and if I hold them for true (knowing that truth in science is not spelled with a capital T, as it only stands given the currently available evidence), it is not because I believe in them, but rather that I am confident that it's been obtained following rigorous guidelines. And importantly that I would most certainly obtain the same results if I could take the time to study the evidence by myself.
Now when it comes to God and faith in general it is very different for no evidence is available - or rather, you have to be a believer to recognise it as an evidence. It's impossible to prove anything regarding God's existence.
I think - and I may be arrogant myself saying that - that there is a lack of understanding of what science is in the general public. And a lack of popularisation from the scientific community. Unfortunately the perception expressed by redlunar that scientists are often arrogant is I think quite justified. We tend to give the impression that we think we are always right, and -especially to those who don't know / understand the method-, that we think we are right other their own beliefs.
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| adrien wrote: |
I think - and I may be arrogant myself saying that - that there is a lack of understanding of what science is in the general public. And a lack of popularisation from the scientific community. Unfortunately the perception expressed by redlunar that scientists are often arrogant is I think quite justified. We tend to give the impression that we think we are always right, and -especially to those who don't know / understand the method-, that we think we are right other their own beliefs. |
No I think that's fair, my background is Mathematics and I.T. So whilst I'm not a 'scientist', my outlook is naturally scientific, because mathematics provides the basis for physics which in turn provide the basis for chemistry and biology. I.T. is based on logic which lends itself to rationalism, it also has many parallels with biology, so I'm privileged enough to appreciate a scientific perspective.
I read a lot of non-fiction science books, probably the most notable of which is a Brief History of Time by Prof. Stephen Hawkins. The physics gets a bit deep for me in parts, but I can still appreciate the core of the book and it all remains just within my ability to understand. As a lay person I have a real desire to understand science and the world around us, this desire is not in all of us, some of us would rather not trouble our minds to understand.
I don't think though we should ask or expect Science to dumb down for us. Remember that scientific theories like evolution are under attack from creationists. A dumbed down explanation of evolution is very easy to pick holes in.
For example some members here have said evolution is random, this is completely wrong. Mutation is random, natural selection is not. Once you understand the beauty of this correction, you can begin to appreciate how such sophisticated creatures like humans have come into existence and thrived. Dig a little deeper into evolutionary theory, go beyond the very basics and it becomes possible to conceive that not only is evolution much more than just a freak of nature, evolution is down-right inevitable.
But as long as you have a dumbed down understanding, a creationist could step forward with the notion of irreducible complexity and you'd fall for it!
| redlunar wrote: | | Secondly, friends don't insult each other, regardless of the situation. |
Well as I said before, my first remark which you "found insulting" was only insulting if you believed you were getting 'life facts' via a direct line from the almighty in heaven. In which case, yes I intended to mock you.
Second anyone who believes they are right, has no evidence they are right and only believes they are right because they 'have a feeling', even though what they believe is in direct conflict with accepted scientific facts and theories is being arrogant.
As a friend I think you deserve an honest assessment, I'm not in the business of sparing someone's feelings so not to upset them, especially not my friends. I believe in being honest with people. I can't nod and say, "that's nice for you" when I think you are making a huge mistake.
Finally this section of the board is as much for non-believers as it is for believers, so if you don't want my views, don't post.
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: |
Well as I said before, my first remark which you "found insulting" was only insulting if you believed you were getting 'life facts' via a direct line from the almighty in heaven. In which case, yes I intended to mock you.
Second anyone who believes they are right, has no evidence they are right and only believes they are right because they 'have a feeling', even though what they believe is in direct conflict with accepted scientific facts and theories is being arrogant.
As a friend I think you deserve an honest assessment, I'm not in the business of sparing someone's feelings so not to upset them, especially not my friends. I believe in being honest with people. I can't nod and say, "that's nice for you" when I think you are making a huge mistake.
Finally this section of the board is as much for non-believers as it is for believers, so if you don't want my views, don't post. |
You haven't given me an answer to this yet:
You don't like it that I belief in something else and in another way, other than what you believe in. Why is this so hard to accept?
I don't post here for your sake and your comments alone. I wasn't the one to attack you with your views, you were the one doing so.
If you think insulting is part of being friends, then you have just lost a friend. |
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Dr Ofah
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Oh my, reading AL and Red is a perfect example of why we have religous wars and such mis-understandings.
Al, insulting and mocking ones faith is rather counter productive..eh?
Red, did no one ever tell you never try to prove your beliefs with someone that wants to knock you down? Really not worth the blows to your soul.
Oh and the topic is Describe your faith, Not Try To Destroy Anothers Faith. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr Ofah wrote: | Oh my, reading AL and Red is a perfect example of why we have religous wars and such mis-understandings.
Al, insulting and mocking ones faith is rather counter productive..eh?
Red, did no one ever tell you never try to prove your beliefs with someone that wants to knock you down? Really not worth the blows to your soul.
Oh and the topic is Describe your faith, Not Try To Destroy Anothers Faith. |
I never said I was right nor did I try and prove my beliefs. I simply stated what I believe in and why (Described my faith). I didn't attack his views in any way, rather he seemed to be doing just that.
If you read my past replies, I think you'll get a better picture. |
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Dr Ofah
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mmmmmmmm red, I was not meaning you, In fact, I felt rather sad to see someone try to belittle your beliefs. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr Ofah wrote: |
Al, insulting and mocking ones faith is rather counter productive..eh?
Oh and the topic is Describe your faith, Not Try To Destroy Anothers Faith. |
Whether this is counter productive or not, I don't know... possibly.
With my first remark I didn't intent to mock her, because I honestly didn't think she would believe she was receiving life truths direct from the almighty in heaven, so the remark about schizophrenia was never intended to apply to her.
My post was really just there to contradict her assertion that Science often discovers things which are consistent with religion. This is patently untrue, science has being contradicting scripture since the time of Galileo.
The fact that Red found this insulting means she either a) misunderstood what I said, or b) genuinely does believe she is receiving life truths direct from the almighty in heaven.
Her next statement was to say she's rather trust her feelings than scientific evidence. Sorry, I'll call a spade a spade, that's a very arrogant position to take because it places your opinion on a pedestal at the expense of accepted facts, even though you have no evidence to back up your position. Its also very closed minded.
I'm not necessarily trying to ruin her faith, but I do want to highlight how her particular beliefs can have negative impacts on her character and her outlook.
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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Dr Ofah
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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mmmmmmmm well I can promise you I would never share my beliefs on this forum. You wrote: I do want to highlight how her particular beliefs can have negative impacts on her character and her outlook.
mmmmmmmm I find that to be very concieted of you and this topic to be a set up for you to try to over power someone else and controling. I think this topic would have moved in a more productive way if folks got to share beliefs without you trying to destroy them. It is far greater to try to understand over destroy.
I think the words you write have a more negative impact on your character then red's. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Well I didn't start this topic with the aim of assassinating someone's beliefs. I did it to open debate on this newly created forum so we could get to know one another's beliefs little better.
It so turns out that I have homed in on Red's beliefs, but its only because I find them so incredible. We were very close friends and I thought I knew her, clearly either I didn't or she's changed a lot in the past couple of months. But that's really a conversation we should have between ourselves. Effectively telling her I don't like what she has becoming is not something I should have done on a Message Board. My bad for letting it get this far on the forum.
Still there was no plan to start this topic so I could dismantle people's beliefs.
Though I'm not exactly alone in attacking someone's beliefs, when Redlunar says:
| Quote: | | I will never totally believe in what the science has to say about this or that. I'd rather stick with what I feel is right than to try and dig up some theory (which can't even be proven) and to use that as some kind of evidence. |
She is in effect attacking my life philosophy. Not in particularly strong terms, but she is in effect saying that what I (and other scientific thinkers) do is go out and "dig up a theory" to explain something and then misuse this theory by presenting as "evidence" to support my case.
I find this insulting, because it implies scientists and people like me are trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. Consider that, then consider why I responded by calling that a very arrogant position to take. Calling someone's belief arrogant is comparable to implying some one else is out to trick you.
PS: Who the hell is the Satanist?
Are you a LaVeyan (philosophical) Satanist? Or theistic Satanist?
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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Dr Ofah
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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No one should insult the others beliefs. I grew up in a setting where folks persecuted my cultures beliefs and I can tell you one thing. It never changed them it only made my beliefs stronger.
Now being one who likes to try to understand all religions it always makes me saddened to see others try to destroy. On both sides.
So, with that said, an open mind is the beginning of understanding. Understanding is the beginning of equality. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr Ofah wrote: | | No one should insult the others beliefs. |
Maybe not, but ultimately, this always happens because where one belief contradicts another, an insult is easily conferred. A careless remark can get someone's back up and produce a retort, another remark might be misunderstood with similar consequences. If you are going to talk religion with people of different views, you ultimately have to be thick skinned or choose your words much more carefully than is often possible on an Internet Forum.
| Quote: | I grew up in a setting where folks persecuted my cultures beliefs and I can tell you one thing. It never changed them it only made my beliefs stronger.
Now being one who likes to try to understand all religions it always makes me saddened to see others try to destroy. On both sides. |
I must confess, I would rather the world embraced rationalism rather than religion, I'm never going to stop on some level trying to convince people to shed their religious views. I'm a lay preacher for science and rationalism, its in my blood and I'm passionate about it. Still I hope to do it without causing World War III.
| Quote: | | So, with that said, an open mind is the beginning of understanding. Understanding is the beginning of equality. |
I've got to disagree with you on that Dr Ofah. Rreligion is ultimately a belief, an opinion. Not all beliefs and opinions are equal, some are right, some are wrong, some are better than others, some are worse than others.
Example: In adult society homophobia largely exists as a religious prejudice, you can't tell me this is an inherently good belief.
Now don't get me wrong no-one should be persecuted for their religious beliefs where these beliefs do not harm others, but equally they should not expect their beliefs to be above criticism or question.
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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Dr Ofah
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Oh please, I will end this debate on my side. Maybe you have no idea how you read?
I am sure that many people are just as pasionate about personal beliefs and really of course harm to others is not okay. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Dr Ofah wrote: | | Oh please, I will end this debate on my side. Maybe you have no idea how you read?: |
What the fuck does that mean?
You said if we can understand one another's religious beliefs we can begin treat on another as equals. But in reality religious beliefs have little to do with equality, because religious beliefs are not equally valid. Some have being wholly disproved as fundamentally flawed, others are still out their to be proved or disproved.
Example: There may be a God, but if there is, he certainly didn't create the Earth 5,000 years ago.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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