The Political Asylum

Michele · Guest

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who gained faith from having a supernatural experience, or conversely, lost their faith due to a traumatically disappointing experience. There was a PBS documentary about the large number of people who lost their faith after 9/11.

Michele · Guest

You can watch video excerpts about the documentary and read more here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/faith/

This is an article about the documentary, with quotes from people who appeared:

"After Sept. 11, the face of God was a blank slate for me," said Father Joseph Griesedieck, an Episcopal priest who volunteered at the ground zero site. "God seemed absent. And I was left with nothing but that thing we call faith -- but faith in what? I wasn't so sure."

"I am sure there are many religious people asking themselves questions ... "Did they hear a voice? Did they hear a calling?"' said photographer Luca Babini, an agnostic, on those who jumped from the twin towers before their collapse. "Something special must have been going on, because a lot of them jumped."

"From the first moment I looked into that horror on Sept. 11 ... I recognized an old companion. I recognized religion," Monsignor Lorenzo Alabacete said. "I knew that force could take you to do great things. But I (also) knew there was no greater or more destructive force on Earth than the religious passion."

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/09/03/911/911_documentary_asks_.shtml

wakeyboy · Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:55 am Post subject:

It's interesting how different people can have opposite experiences to an event such as 9/11. For some it may have eroded their faith, for others it may have strengthened it.

It didnt affect me on a spiritual level at the time because I was toying with atheism. Later though, some time after a rekindling of my faith, I looked back at how ordinary people risked their lives for others. The fact that in the middle of that hatred and evil ordinary human beings were acting like human beings and helping one another. I challenge anyone to be cynical about the altruism of those ordinary heroes.

There's something touching about that. things like that make me choke up and I get a similar feeling when I think about God or good men and women who have done amazing things.
_________________
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AngryLiberal · Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:32 am Post subject:

diamond lil · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 825

yes, I agree...I'm a great believer in the Human Spirit.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree

Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk

wakeyboy · Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject:

adrien · Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject:

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

AngryLiberal · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject:

diamond lil · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 825

where did you get that tosh from?...in the animal kingdon it's the strongest and fittest that manage to pass on their genes, not the nicest natured.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree

Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk

adrien · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:03 am Post subject:

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

AngryLiberal · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject:

Michele · Guest

Natural selection is more about the ability to adapt than survival of the fittest.

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

diamond lil · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 825

I knew you'd read the Blind Watchmaker, David.
The link you gave was interesting, Adrien, but nowhere did it say that females of the species look out for kind, sensitive males when it comes to finding a suitable mate.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree

Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk

AngryLiberal · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject:

adrien · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject:

AngryLiberal · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject:

diamond lil · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 825

for dummies.

but that's the whole point, Adrien. Humans don't compare to the rest of the animal kingdom.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree

Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk

adrien · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject:

AngryLiberal · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject:

diamond lil · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 825

oh, David...that's just flesh blood and bone ..oh, alright..nerves and tendons and the like, too.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree

Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk

AngryLiberal · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject:

No its more than that. At the end of the day, our emotional & creative characteristics are all products of our DNA just as much as our physical characteristics.

Chimps and certain breeds of Monkey's have learnt to fashion and use rudimentary tools (creative characteristics) this is not a huge leap from early man. Dolphins also demonstrate a highly sophisticated range of emotions and demonstrate clear empathy with other creatures.

I can even communicate and exchange emotional feelings with my 7 month old cat. I know when he is happy because I have learnt to read his body language, he can also understand when I am pissed off with him because I've taught him to recognise my body language and vocalisations. Admittedly I've had to dumb it down, because he's only a cat. But we have an exchange of empathy and communication which is comparable with two foreigners meeting for the first time who don't speak the same language.

I speak 'cat'... my cat speaks 'Dave'. Not bad for a dumb animal.

Anyway... all this aside you are way off topic talking about animals at all. The original point made by Wakey was that: "If human beings are capable of true altruism then that goes against all that is logical and it goes against biology." What I believe Adrien and myself have shown over the course of this thread is that altruism is not only logical its very much compatible with biology, evolution & natural selection.
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks.

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

adrien · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:10 am Post subject:

diamond lil · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 825

You and Adrien haven't shown anything...you're always claiming to prove something you haven't, David. Animals are capable of learning (just look at Pippin!), have behaviour patterns and can feel emotions such as fear etc., but they don't have logical thought processes in the way a human being does. When lions hunt as a team, they all have their part to play and play it every time. Animals haven't become more altruistic over time, they've adapted to suit their environment physically and mentally..or not, sometimes.
The Human spirit has not evolved in the way you mean....we haven't evolved at all, really, except for minor physical attributes.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree

Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk

adrien · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:04 am Post subject:

AngryLiberal · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject:

Forget it Adrien, she's incorrigible!

We could cite example after example, give explanation after explanation and she still would refuse to believe it, because this would mean Lil would have to do something she is completely incapable of doing:

Admit she is wrong!

The very fact that nature has allowed Lil to reproduce proves that Nature is still striving for perfection. But Lil won't accept that. Little Miss Perfect, Mary Poppins here is so satisfied with herself that given the chance she'd halt evolution and Clone herself. Lil is perfect, she can't be wrong for goodness sake Adrien, try to remember that! Wink

_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks.

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

AngryLiberal · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject:

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

AngryLiberal · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject:

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

AngryLiberal · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject:

I give up you are a lost soul!

Rolling Eyes

_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks.

redlunar · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 244

diamond lil · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 825

I would always be willing to admit I was wrong if I was...it would be a novel experience for me, because I'm never wrong...not ever. I am always right. It would be much better for everyone if they would just admit it and have done with it...you would feel so much better, and all this naughty temper and acid indigestion would melt away.
Adrien, all those animal experiments and so on, are very interesting... but animals can't take it further in the way human beings can. I read about the apes who've ben taught sign language, but remain slightly sceptical about how much the apes understand...I'm not sure who's been trained here.
My dog Flossie tells me when it's dinner time, and I didn't teach her to do what she does to let me know , but let me know she does. She's learnt to associate the plastic bag cupboard with walkies...she watches me intently when I put my coat on to see if I'm going to the plastic bag cupboard, and if I don't her ears go down, and she goes upstairs to lie on my bed sulking, even before I've opened the front door.
It doesn't mean much ....she doesn't know she's been spayed and will never be a mother. She doesn't associate the ear drops bottle with anything other than not liking having stuff squirted in her ears. She hasn't associated it with relief from her bothersome ear infection...she takes one look at the little bottle and runs behind the sofa.
It's interesting to see how animals can behave, but they don't have the consciousness that humans do. I read somewhere a vet saying that he was called to farm to treat a cat that had fallen into a combine harvester. The poor little thing had lost all four of her legs and he had no option but to euthanise her. He said as he began to fondle her head , she began to purr loudly...a human would be in a state of shock and distress. Animals have no ability to realise things.
At least you admit red lunar has a soul...you're getting there, David..and talking of souls, one theory I've read about is that animals have one soul per species.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree

Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk

adrien · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject:

diamond lil · Inmate of the Asylum Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 825

don't be silly, Adrien. I expect it from David, but not you. I was reading Philosophy before you were born.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree

Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk

adrien · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject:

wakeyboy · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject:

I haven't been around for a few days so i'll refer you all back to my posts on altruism.

There was a reason why I said "genuine altruism" and not just 'altruism'. I am quite aware that some animals demonstrate altruism and that IS biological. Its explanations lie in evolution. Some human beings demonstrate this type of altruism too but humans also demonstrate GENUINE altruism, of the sort that has no biological or evolutionary benefits nor any material benefits.

What about nuns and clergymen who visit convicts in jail? People on death row, murderers, sex offenders etc. Are these celibate people visiting paedophiles, murderers and terrorists so that they can impress a potential mate? I don't think so!

What about people who give anonymously to charity?

What about people who dedicate their lives to helping the poor and sick, often living very humble lives themselves?

I'm a psychology graduate so I'm well aware of evolutionary psychology and physiological arguments for human behaviour. So please A.L. cut the 'brainier than thou' act that you do.
_________________
http://www.realradioyorkshire.co.uk/

AngryLiberal · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject:

wakeyboy · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject:

AngryLiberal · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject:

wakeyboy · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject:

adrien · Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:11 am Post subject:

AngryLiberal · Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:47 am Post subject:

wakeyboy · Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject:

The words 'clutching' and 'straws' spring to mind here!
_________________
http://www.realradioyorkshire.co.uk/

Michele · Guest

That nun is not a fictional character. Her name is Sister Helen Prejean, and she changed my views on capital punishment when I watched her give a talk on BookTv on C-Span one afternoon.