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The Political Asylum
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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 Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: |
PS: Redlunar - Evolution as a Theory is being verified everyday. Every new fossilised discovery is consistent with the theory, so it is being verified. Of course one inconsistent result will mean we have to re-examine the theory, but we've had almost 200 years of testing Darwinism and its so far stood up to the test. This means our confidence in Evolutionary theory is growing with every new piece of the evolutionary jigsaw puzzle we find. |
David, the theory and all it's "results" have never ever been 100% proven - that's why I don't believe them. For example: a small microscopic DNA stran telling me "Hey, I'm responsible for your developement into a human." How stupid does that sound? The thing is people want to pin point to something, they think, will give a rational explanation to how and why things are the way they are.
People will never be able to prove things they don't understand. It's just the way it is. Only later will they get the message.
Btw, why is it so important to discredit God? Why is it easier to believe something as small as a microscopic organism than to believe that it was also created by the Almighty?
Therefore God is also responsible for evolution. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | AngryLiberal wrote: |
PS: Redlunar - Evolution as a Theory is being verified everyday. Every new fossilised discovery is consistent with the theory, so it is being verified. Of course one inconsistent result will mean we have to re-examine the theory, but we've had almost 200 years of testing Darwinism and its so far stood up to the test. This means our confidence in Evolutionary theory is growing with every new piece of the evolutionary jigsaw puzzle we find. |
David, the theory and all it's "results" have never ever been 100% proven - that's why I don't believe them. For example: a small microscopic DNA stran telling me "Hey, I'm responsible for your developement into a human." How stupid does that sound? The thing is people want to pin point to something, they think, will give a rational explanation to how and why things are the way they are.
People will never be able to prove things they don't understand. It's just the way it is. Only later will they get the message.
Btw, why is it so important to discredit God? Why is it easier to believe something as small as a microscopic organism than to believe that it was also created by the Almighty?
Therefore God is also responsible for evolution. |
Redlunar you need to go away and read Science 101. Theories are not proven. Evolution is a theory not a fact. Few theories are ever actually proven, not even the Theory of Gravity! Yet its the theory of gravity that landed space shuttles on the moon! Clearly this is a good theory.
| wikipedia wrote: | In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory.
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So what makes a good Theory?
| Stephen Hawking wrote: | | According to Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of Time, "a theory is a good theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately describe a large class of observations on the basis of a model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it must make definite predictions about the results of future observations". He goes on to state, "any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis; you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single repeatable observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory". |
So Evolution as a theory is predictive, logical and testable, just as is the Theory of Gravity. The God creator theory is none of those things, hence it is not a good theory, not in a scientific sense. Its merely a wild guess which can never be substantiated, does nothing to enlighten mankind about of origins, our surroundings or our future, conversely evolutionary theory does all of those things to varying extents, which by no means suggests it offers all the answers, but does explain a damn sight more than Creationist nonsense.
PS: Its much more easy to believe that human life evolved out of a less advanced life-form (especially given the fossil evidence to support it) than it is to believe it magically appeared one day on God's whim in the garden of Eden. Also DNA does not create life, it holds the blueprints to life.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Goodbrit wrote: |
Thats the fundamental challenge for non believers-to accept the unknown as a small part of the greater entity that is their faith |
I'd say non-believers are very willing to accept the unknown, by virtue of the fact science has not yet explained everything, and arguably would need an infinity of time to explain the infinities of the unexplained. Science probably never will explain everything. So non-believers have to be content with the pursuit of knowledge and reducing the 'unknown' without every really eliminating it.
Creationism doesn't really help matters, because it just offers a wild guess which can never been substantiated. Nor does it really explain anything, it just kind of glosses over the whole mechanics of creation.
If you subscribe to Creationist theory what you are saying is "I don't want to know how things work." Creationism amounts to intellectual surrender.
"Oh no this is far to complicated for me to understand rationally, fuck it I'll give up thinking about it and just say God it all."
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: |
Redlunar you need to go away and read Science 101. |
Well in that case, I'd encourage you to do the same with the bible. I'm not forcing my views on you and surely you're not trying to do same (I hope). I guess we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. No one is going to change each other's mind. We all believe in something for a reason which doesn't have to be proven.
Just as interesting as you might find people with faith and why they believe what they believe, the same can be said about people with sceptism with regards to faith and God in general.
| Quote: |
Theories are not proven. Evolution is a theory not a fact. Few theories are ever actually proven, not even the Theory of Gravity!. |
At least we agree on this.  |
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JuanaLaLoca
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 1291
Location: New England
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | | Imagine if someone smashed into your car and blamed it on having to swerve to avoid an invisible pink unicorn which he "felt" run out in front of him. Could you really see this an acceptable defence for wreaking your motor? |
No, of course it would not be acceptable. And I doubt that if someone ran into your car because he said that God told him to, that that would be acceptable, either. Or if he said he saw a vision of Jesus standing in the road and swerved to avoid him. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| JuanaLaLoca wrote: |
No, of course it would not be acceptable. And I doubt that if someone ran into your car because he said that God told him to, that that would be acceptable, either. Or if he said he saw a vision of Jesus standing in the road and swerved to avoid him. |
So you accept that belief in unseen & undetectable entities is not rational enough to stand up in court.
| Redlunar wrote: | | Well in that case, I'd encourage you to do the same with the bible. I'm not forcing my views on you and surely you're not trying to do same (I hope). I guess we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. No one is going to change each other's mind. We all believe in something for a reason which doesn't have to be proven. |
I have done the same with the bible, I would say I know the bible better than most here. Notice how I frequently cite it in my posts on such topics. When was the last time you read the bible Redlunar?
And whilst I'm trying to force my view on anyone I am trying to get others to re-examine their views and be self-critical of their own position, your "agree to disagree sentiment" does nothing to encourage this, so I deplore it like creationism as intellectual surrender.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Nope, I just don't agree with what you are saying David. You believe what you want to, I'll do the same with my own belief. There's a reason for everything.
P.S. I have started reading the Bible again. I'll be continuing to do so to learn more.
At the very first reply I gave a link, and hoped that you would at least take a look on that website: http://bible-truths.com/ You might find some interesting debates on there as well with regards to belief in God.
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SuzyQ
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I am trying to get others to re-examine their views and be self-critical of their own position, your "agree to disagree sentiment" does nothing to encourage this, so I deplore it like creationism as intellectual surrender.
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Why are you trying to get others to re examine their views. That to me is the height of arrogance and intolerance. You don't wish them to re examine, you wish them to change their views as you believe them to be wrong.
If people choose to re-examine they'll do it when they want to, not to satisfy some pseudo intellectual thread on a messageboard.
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If it ain't broke................hit it again. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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That's rather close minded of you Suzy, we don't just participate in these forums to state our opinions, but also to inform our opinion. What's the point in coming here if you are not prepared to be pursuaded by a reasoned argument?
You just become Diamond Lil.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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SuzyQ
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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I see your way as that of one with a closed mind.
I like hearing other peoples opinions and sharing mine BUT I do not expect others to change or re-evaluate their lifestyles/beliefs/outlook because of anything I have to say. You have almost required it in this thread and insulted someone for wanting to agree to differ.
You profess yourself to be tolerant and liberal but in my opinion it is a double bluff. You only tolerate behaviour you assume to not be the norm, you are intolerant of the conservative or the norm.
I haven't seen a reasoned argument on this thread. You cannot demand that people be persuaded. Just as I cannot demand that you re-evaluate your own notion of tolerance.
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If it ain't broke................hit it again. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| SuzyQ wrote: | I see your way as that of one with a closed mind.
I like hearing other peoples opinions and sharing mine BUT I do not expect others to change or re-evaluate their lifestyles/beliefs/outlook because of anything I have to say. You have almost required it in this thread and insulted someone for wanting to agree to differ. |
With respect Suzy, you have launched the insults not me. I have not said anything derogatory towards you. I do however, expect people to be open to considering another view, but if your position is unshakable why debate? I believe I have asked a series of questions in this thread to get people to explain their position, and I have even said I would be prepared to believe in God if someone could prove his existence to me. My mind is not closed. Just conditional on rational argument.
| Quote: | | You profess yourself to be tolerant and liberal but in my opinion it is a double bluff. You only tolerate behaviour you assume to not be the norm, you are intolerant of the conservative or the norm. |
That's a very unfair accusation, where I have I expressed any intolerant views? You keep making this allegation but you refuse to back it up with example. As to whether I am intolerant of conservatism or the norm then that really depends how you define conservatism and the norm. If the norm is intolerant then yes I am intolerant of intolerance!
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I haven't seen a reasoned argument on this thread. |
Then you haven't been reading it.
| Quote: | | You cannot demand that people be persuaded. |
I don't demand people be persuaded, I only request that they come here open to be persuaded. IE: That they are not so closed minded that they reject a well reasoned argument without first giving it due consideration.
| Quote: | | Just as I cannot demand that you re-evaluate your own notion of tolerance. |
I think I just did evaluate my own notion of tolerance, see above.
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks.
Last edited by AngryLiberal on Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | There's a reason for everything.
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I've got to pick up this comment.
OK Redlunar, lets assume there is a reason for existence... what reason or meaning do you think that belief in a creator God attaches to existence?
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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Michele
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| To find the other 12 tribes of Kobol! |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:26 am Post subject: |
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Ah another BSG fan! Don't give away Series III I'm gonna watch it on DVD.
But seriously its a good question...
If you are searching for reason or meaning to life, then what reason or meaning do you think that belief in a creator God attaches to existence?
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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SuzyQ
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I have not insulted you just questioned your approach.
I don't think I have expressed my position and whether it is shakable, just again questioned your approach which has been badgering.
So the norm is intolerant, interesting. I consider myself to be intolerant of intolerance but mine works in all ways.
You consider it to be well reasoned, I don't, that does not mean I haven't read it. Are you closed to the possibility that your argument may not be as well reasoned as you think it is?
You justified your intolerance of the Conservative or the Norm by branding them intolerant. Interesting.
We'll have to agree to differ. 
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If it ain't broke................hit it again. |
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Michele
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:57 am Post subject: |
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I'm only halfway through Season 2. Don't worry!
If there was a meaning to existence, my guess would be to evolve - sort of like 2001: A Space Odyssey style. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | There's a reason for everything.
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I've got to pick up this comment.
OK Redlunar, lets assume there is a reason for existence... what reason or meaning do you think that belief in a creator God attaches to existence? |
First of all I don't "think" about the reasons or meanings to life, but rather "know" it's run by the man upstairs. Seriously AL, if it was any other way possible, I'd be interested to hear and see the evidence - THEN I'll believe them.
"…but vain were they made in their reasonings and darkened is their unintelligent heart. Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid…" (Rom. 1:21-22, Concordant Literal New Testament). "
Proof me wrong then I will convert!
Btw, have you even taken a look on the website? I'd like to hear your views on it. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| SuzyQ wrote: |
You justified your intolerance of the Conservative or the Norm by branding them intolerant. Interesting. |
No I didn't. You are persisting in mis-reading me.
| Redlunar wrote: | | First of all I don't "think" about the reasons or meanings to life, but rather "know" it's run by the man upstairs. Seriously AL, if it was any other way possible, I'd be interested to hear and see the evidence - THEN I'll believe them. |
You asked for evidence of other possible ways, so I've just brought you a book on Evolution, hopefully that will help. But you seem inconsistent in your demands, you demand proof you are wrong, but have no proof you are right!
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: |
You asked for evidence of other possible ways, so I've just brought you a book on Evolution, hopefully that will help. But you seem inconsistent in your demands, you demand proof you are wrong, but have no proof you are right! |
Why thank you 
It's basically just the other way around with you asking me the same to proof to you that God exists. The fact is I don't think we'll get the answers correct, either way you look at it. Scientists can do all they want to try out their theories, but not everyone is going to accept them, because sceptism still rules the overal outcome.
I know where you're coming from, but I'm still stuck with my own questions - but I'm not going to stop at scientific theories and just leave it at that. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| redlunar wrote: | | AngryLiberal wrote: | | You seem inconsistent in your demands, you demand proof you are wrong, but have no proof you are right! |
It's basically just the other way around with you asking me the same to proof to you that God exists. |
No, it is not, certainly as far as evolution is concerned it isn't. There is evidence to support evolutionary theory, in particular natural selection. One of the best known examples of which is the development of antibiotic resistant micro-organisms like MRSA.
In Contrast, there is no evidence (beyond the book of Genesis which most bible scholars have branded as figurative not factual) to support biblical creationism, and no evidence whatsoever to suggest intelligent design.
You have to remember that since Darwin first proposed evolution and natural selection there has not being a single piece of fossil evidence which contradicts his theory. Let me reiterate that: there has not being a single piece of fossil evidence which contradicts evolution as a theory! This means that with each new fossil discovery our confidence in Darwinism grows.
As for the case that I have no proof a deity does not exist, I believe I have already explained why the burden the proof must remain on the advocate for the existence of all entities which are unseen and undetectable. This applies equally for God, Russell's Teapot, the Invisible Pink Unicorn and the tooth fairy!
_________________
David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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Vintage Girl
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Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 3434
Location: Essex, England
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: |
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There is more to life than evidence, David.
Besides, everyone knows there is a tooth fairy, you're just being silly! |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | | AngryLiberal wrote: | | You seem inconsistent in your demands, you demand proof you are wrong, but have no proof you are right! |
It's basically just the other way around with you asking me the same to proof to you that God exists. |
No, it is not, certainly as far as evolution is concerned it isn't. There is evidence to support evolutionary theory, in particular natural selection. One of the best known examples of which is the development of antibiotic resistant micro-organisms like MRSA.
In Contrast, there is no evidence (beyond the book of Genesis which most bible scholars have branded as figurative not factual) to support biblical creationism, and no evidence whatsoever to suggest intelligent design.
You have to remember that since Darwin first proposed evolution and natural selection there has not being a single piece of fossil evidence which contradicts his theory. Let me reiterate that: there has not being a single piece of fossil evidence which contradicts evolution as a theory! This means that with each new fossil discovery our confidence in Darwinism grows.
As for the case that I have no proof a deity does not exist, I believe I have already explained why the burden the proof must remain on the advocate for the existence of all entities which are unseen and undetectable. This applies equally for God, Russell's Teapot, the Invisible Pink Unicorn and the tooth fairy! |
Well we'll see...why don't you go and read through the website I sent you and I'll do the same with your book. I doubt however, it'll change our minds.
But then again, it wouldn't hurt to learn something new. This ofcourse wouldn't mean I'll believe it. |
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AngryLiberal
A-cute schizophrenic
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1465
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | There's a reason for everything.
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I've got to pick up this comment.
OK Redlunar, lets assume there is a reason for existence... what reason or meaning do you think that belief in a creator God attaches to existence? |
You never answered this question.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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diamond lil
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | That's rather close minded of you Suzy, we don't just participate in these forums to state our opinions, but also to inform our opinion. What's the point in coming here if you are not prepared to be pursuaded by a reasoned argument?
You just become Diamond Lil. |
Taking my name in vain, again?...if I only I could bottle this fatal fascination I seem to exude....sigh.
You aren't giving reasoned arguments, David....you're telling us the reasons why you don't believe in God and why you've rejected religion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't believe in God because you can't see Him and you don't believe in religion because you find it too restrictive...is that right?
A lot of people blame the troubles of the world on religion...wars have been started because of religion , terrible injustices have been carried out in the name of religion and so on...but I think that's because human beings are tribal creatures...religion is woven into the fabric of our cultures in one form or another and always was...because we're also spiritual creatures...we're not just flesh blood and bone.
I believe in an almighty Diety because anything else is random chaos and I don't believe in random chaos.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
theonlylil@yahoo.co.uk |
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redlunar
Inmate of the Asylum
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | | AngryLiberal wrote: | | redlunar wrote: | There's a reason for everything.
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I've got to pick up this comment.
OK Redlunar, lets assume there is a reason for existence... what reason or meaning do you think that belief in a creator God attaches to existence? |
You never answered this question. |
Spiritual understanding...which scientific theories lack.
Here is something I might agree with:
Ask almost anybody and they'll be able to tell you something about the theory of evolution. Even though this explanation for the origin and changes of species is widely accepted, it is nevertheless critically flawed. When one takes a deeper look into the theory's foundational claims, it becomes evident that it is incompatible with modern science.
When Darwin proposed the theory of evolution, he believed that species have been constantly changing into new and more complex creatures throughout our history. However, Darwin was not able to prove this evolution of species during his lifetime. His whole theory was founded on his assumption that transitional forms would be discovered in the near future.
Transitional forms (for example, a creature between a dinosaur and a bird) are absolutely crucial to the theory's reliability. If species have been undergoing continual change to become a new species as the theory claims, then it stands to reason that fossils should reveal thousands of transitional forms. Yet, to date, not one fossil has offered us solid proof of such a creature.
Even aside from there being no transitional forms in the fossil records, these forms should be seen even today if the theory holds true. If species are constantly evolving, why don't we see any animals now that are becoming a new species? If species really do evolve, logic tells us that there should be transitional creatures roaming the earth right now.
If the lack of proof alone doesn't convince you, let's go on to assess the scientific probability of Darwin's theory. Evolution assumes that the universe -- every atom, creature, and planet -- was formed by complete chance. Emile Borel, a French scientist whose expertise is in probability, calculated that the likelihood of even one human cell being produced at random is 10 to the 119,000th power. Sir Fred Hoyle, a mathematician and astronomer, put that number into perspective. "The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping though a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein."
Furthermore, the Anthropic Principle provides astounding information about just how intricate the universe truly is. Anything so vastly complex would be scientifically impossible to come into existence by mere chance.
Speaking of science, the second law of thermodynamics also has something to say about the likelihood of evolution. This law states that although energy stays at a constant, the amount of usable energy is always decreasing. That is to say that the universe is slowly degenerating with time. Everything becomes less organized as time flows. However, evolution contradicts the second law by claiming that one species becomes a new and improved species over time. This means that chaos would produce organization, which according to the second law, is not possible.
The theory of evolution doesn't deal with how the matter that formed the universe came to exist. Matter and energy must have come from somewhere, but where?
Since the theory of evolution is shown to be incorrect by science itself, there needs to be another explanation of how the universe and all it's inhabitance came to be. The foundational questions that evolution fails to explain can be answered by the theory of Intelligent Design. This theory largely differs from that of evolution because it supposes the existence of a Devine Creator.
Even though the Bible wasn't written by scientists, it is nevertheless scientifically accurate, as scientific evidence does not contradict it. Genesis 1:1 provides a very simple answer for the problem of where matter and energy came from: God made it! He created matter, energy, and all other scientific constants, and he keeps them all at their constant level.
From there, the universe came to exist and continues to expand outward. God created different species to live on the earth, some of which have made minor adaptations and others that have died out. The Bible says that God designed people because he loved us, and he made the world just so we could inhabit it.
The most profound question in my mind is, "Why is that so bad?" Including God in the origin of the universe says that we were put here for a purposeit gives meaning to life on earth. Yet the theory of evolution denies any creator and supposes that life exists by random chance. To me, one of these options sounds somewhat less appealing.
Scientists are continually finding evidence that confirms the Bible's accuracy. Although the Bible mentions some things we can't yet explain, it only shows that the God of the Bible has a higher level of understanding than humans (which, to me, is also a big relief). Perhaps the theory of evolution is so popular because it denies the existence of God, making the purpose of life to serve ourselves.
I firmly believe that educated people need to give the theory of evolution a closer look. Although it is certainly easier to sit back and swallow what the world proclaims, a more critical look reveals the many flaws of the theory's propositions.
Source:
http://www.easternecho.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?31063 |
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| diamond lil wrote: |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't believe in God because you can't see Him and you don't believe in religion because you find it too restrictive...is that right?
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I don't believe in God because a) there is no evidence of his existence and b) there is no need for his existence. I don't believe in religion because they normally require a belief in God.
| Quote: | | A lot of people blame the troubles of the world on religion...wars have been started because of religion , terrible injustices have been carried out in the name of religion and so on...but I think that's because human beings are tribal creatures...religion is woven into the fabric of our cultures in one form or another and always was...because we're also spiritual creatures...we're not just flesh blood and bone. |
The roots of Religion had more of a tribal element to them than a spiritual one.
| Quote: | | I believe in an almighty Diety because anything else is random chaos and I don't believe in random chaos. |
That's a common misconception, anything else does not have to be random chaos. Evolutionary theory is for example, very deliberate, definite, decisive and logical. Its not in the least bit random or chaotic.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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It was spiritual as well as tribal. Human beings have always been spiritual...we worshipped fire, we worshipped the sun. There is a need for His existence, because otherwise there's nothing but random chaos...I don't see how you can say there isn't. What humans do to each other is nothing compared to what nature does to humanity....I have a choice whether to believe it's down to chance, or down to design. I prefer to believe it's down to design...and I came to that conclusion by way of coming to believe in reincarnation...and I've tried to explain the route, but got into a terrible muddle and had to delete it.
_________________
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Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| diamond lil wrote: | | I have a choice whether to believe it's down to chance, or down to design. I prefer to believe it's down to design. |
This is the flaw in your thinking. Its not either or!
Take Evolution. It's not about chance! Its about nature selecting the best characteristics for survival in a given environment, this is not chance! Natural Selection is not chance!
Now given nature has found multiple ways to accomplish survival, this would suggest that there are millions of routes for live to thrive.
Why would an intelligent designer find so many different ways for live to thrive? If there was an intelligent designer surely once he'd found one or two different solutions to he'd settle on a job done? We have so many independent ecosystems on this planet, that life clearly must be a biological imperative not a chance event or an act of design.
There is a third way, not chance, not intelligent design but natural selection.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| AngryLiberal wrote: | | diamond lil wrote: | | I have a choice whether to believe it's down to chance, or down to design. I prefer to believe it's down to design. |
This is the flaw in your thinking. Its not either or!
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yes it is...I'm talking about the cards we're dealt. I prefer to think it isn't random bad or good luck.
| AngryLiberal wrote: |
Take Evolution. It's not about chance! Its about nature selecting the best characteristics for survival in a given environment, this is not chance! Natural Selection is not chance!
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no, that's design
| AngryLiberal wrote: |
Why would an intelligent designer find so many different ways for live to thrive? If there was an intelligent designer surely once he'd found one or two different solutions to he'd settle on a job done? We have so many independent ecosystems on this planet, that life clearly must be a biological imperative not a chance event or an act of design. |
No, not at all....it's an ongoing project if you like. We're an ongoing project. It's what I believe...and it's in the bible.
| AngryLiberal wrote: | | There is a third way, not chance, not intelligent design but natural selection. |
I think that's tied in with intelligent design.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Lil you are being dense! Natural selection is not chance.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks.
Last edited by AngryLiberal on Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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excellent response...someone give him a coconut.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Natural selection is not chance.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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you added that.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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And I add it again. Natural Selection is not chance. Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life).
Read for a better understanding:
ttp://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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No..you added it to the first post. It originally just read "lil you are being dense!" I can't read that link.
Evolution fits in with my beliefs...we must improve, we can't stop ourselves. However long it takes we'll get there in the end...even you, David. Natural selection is part of that...we discard our lesser selves and move on to better things next time...and the time after that, and the time after that.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Then you agree there is a third way, not just chance or design?
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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no...that's not what I said...I was saying that evolution and natural selection are intelligently designed.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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I should add....according to my beliefs.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose I could explain how I came to believe what I do believe, but I can't really remember all of it, and I don't think anyone would be remotely interested anyway.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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Michele
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I would be interested, but not to debate you over it. I'm always interested in how people reach conclusions about faith. It's easy to understand why religion is not polite conversation. It can be unsettling to open oneself up to having their beliefs examined and questioned. |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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yes, you're right....you can debate the finer points, but not the fundamental belief...I've no objection to debating the finer points, but like anyone else I won't have my beliefs mocked...However, debating the finer points leads to other stuff, because all the finer points are connected to make a complete whole. If someone is attempting to trash one of them, then you'll feel the whole thing being rocked.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| diamond lil wrote: | | no...that's not what I said...I was saying that evolution and natural selection are intelligently designed. |
Well I'm interested... what makes you believe that?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds a little to me like you are advocating a kind of deism, you are saying you believe in a creator god who set the laws of Physics & Science in motion. Would that be fair?
| Michele wrote: | | It can be unsettling to open oneself up to having their beliefs examined and questioned. |
That comes with the territory of debate. One great test for your beliefs is if they can stand up to examination & scrutiny by others, and more importantly by yourself, then you can be reassured they well held beliefs.
Sadly don't think people think enough about their theological beliefs, often we hide behind this social rule of not discussing religion, so not to cause offence, but this equally protects certain beliefs from critical examination.
Nothing should be above critical examination, especially our faith.
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This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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redlunar
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: |
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I don't mind people asking me why I would believe in God. The thing is, it's a personal matter and it can't always be explained in a way someone else would understand it totally.
I respect other beliefs and if it's not too much to ask, I'll ask the same of others to respect my beliefs (Whether they do or don't understand it). |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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It's not easy to do on paper...I used to spend hours discussing the meaning the life when I was a girl, the way girls and boys do...very earnestly...you can go back and forth and take twists and turns, it's easy...you can think aloud and correct yourself....you sort out what makes sense to you while you're all talking..someone will say something that rings a bell in your mind...if it was to be written down in would go on for pages and pages and pages.
I find this difficult, because I have to marshall my thoughts , which are in fact feelings rather than thoughts...so not only do they have to be sorted out , they have to be put into words in a way that is concise and sensible, and for me that is impossible for such a big, complicated thing.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Take your time... but give it a try.
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Like millions of Brits, I grew up in a non religious family...we call ourselves Christian C of E, but we don't go to church or read the bible, and only pray when necessary. My main Christian teaching came from school in the form of bible stories , and a morning assembly which was similar to a church service for children. We sang hymns, we prayed, we listened the Head Teacher giving a kind of sermon...that kind of thing. I always enjoyed it and never doubted anything I was told...I still don't. It was a gentle introduction to the religion of the people of Britain with no pressure. We merely gave thanks to God through our Lord Jesus Christ for the good things we had, asked Him to help us be good children...we prayed for the sick and suffering...that kind of thing. We knew He could see all the naughty things we did, but He was glad when we were sorry about it and forgave us everything. We knew He loved us all. I still know that...obviously I don't put it in the words I used as a child, but I know His love is infinite...pretty simple stuff. I'm not a bible scholar and never have been...so I have to start from there. It's already taken ages.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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OK Lil, you've loosely said what you believe, but can I ask why you believe?
I'm inferring from earlier posts that you don't take all of the bible literally or believe that it is the infallible word of God, because you said you accept Evolution and Natural Selection really do happen, only you kind of implied they were processes set in motion by God.
Tell me do you believein miracles? For example as described in the bible. Water into wine, or anywhere in the bible where God intervenes in the laws of nature? What's your take on these stories?
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David
This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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Goodbrit
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think its time to possibly reel this arguament backt o its original point-the fact that some people were using the discovery of a tomb to a man called Jesus, to somehow disprove part of the Christian teachings.
Lets not forget, that Jesus, Mary and Joseph were possible some of THE most commonnames int hat part of the world 2000 years ago, and that this grave complex was found in 1980-if its such groundbreaking, socially shattering news, why has it taken 27 years to be picked up by the press
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diamond lil
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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I knew I'd mess it up. That's just the basics...I became interested in Theosophy when I was a teenager, but I'm not a Theosophist and I've never belonged to a lodge...I love what they believe, it was like a light being switched on...but I've never wanted to be involved in the occult.
Theosophy is a huge subject..I've only skirted round it myself and am no authority. I'll do my best to answer any questions you may have about it, but I may have to look it up.
So to come to turning water into wine and the other miracles...yes, I believe He did those things. Theosophists believe Jesus was a supreme being who'd attained perfection in this world, but chose to come back to it...they call him an Adept. He could perform miracles, because he had complete occult power. A miracle is just something we don't understand.
I'm going to see if I can find something I can copy and paste.
_________________
In Manchester, did Tony Blair
A state owned pleasure dome decree
Oh gentle geezer, Oh blood. 'Tis not for you to hear what I speak. Dunfor has OD'd.
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AngryLiberal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Theosophy.... Wow! I'm sure most of us had to look that up!
But isn't the motto of Theosophy: "There is no religion higher than Truth."
This would imply that truth is the ultimate goal, so consequently cynicism and critical analysis would be core to the theosophical. This would ultimately lead to the rejection of orthodox religious teaching, as even if you accepted each as having some merit, you could only conclude they had 'truth' where they all agree.
Other theosophical beliefs are rather well meanings and "would be nice to believe" but there is less evidence to support them than there is Judae-Christian-Islamic beliefs, which at least have a "good book".
Ultimately (and one thing I've learnt from this discussion and others) faith seems to be more about what people feel to be true and less about what they know to be true.
Feelings and hunches are what religious beliefs amount to at the end of the day. To pretend its anything more than this is to invent a whole new concept with which to describe it. From an Atheistic perspective I'm not sure that this diminishes faith per say, but it does require the believer to assume a lot, and I'm reminded of an expression: "Assumption is the mother of all screw ups!" - Wethern's Law.
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This post is dedicated to those who lost their lives in the Star Wars films: Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Stormtrooper #5, Qui Gon, Dak, Biggs, Stormtrooper #22, Palpatine. Everyone on the Death Stars and sadly not Jar Jar Binks. |
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